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Creator of Extreme Programming (XP), co-author of The Agile Manifesto, and a pioneer of Test-Driven Development (TDD), he\u2019s shaped how teams write, test, and think about code.\n\nNow, with over five decades of programming experience, Kent is still pushing boundaries\u2014this time with AI coding tools. In this episode of Pragmatic Engineer, I sit down with him to talk about what\u2019s changed, what hasn\u2019t, and why he\u2019s more excited than ever to code.\n\nIn our conversation, we cover:\n\n\u2022 Why Kent calls AI tools an \u201cunpredictable genie\u201d\u2014and how he\u2019s using them\n\u2022 Why Kent no longer has an emotional attachment to any specific programming language\n\u2022 The backstory of The Agile Manifesto\u2014and why Kent resisted the word \u201cagile\u201d\n\u2022 An overview of XP (Extreme Programming) and how Grady Booch played a role in the name \n\u2022 Tape-to-tape experiments in Kent\u2019s childhood that laid the groundwork for TDD\n\u2022 Kent\u2019s time at Facebook and how he adapted to its culture and use of feature flags\n\u2022 And much more!\n\n\u2014\nBrought to you by:\n\u2022 Sonar \u2014  Code quality and code security for ALL code http:\/\/sonarsource.com\/pragmaticsecurity\n\u2022\u2060 Statsig \u2060 \u2014 \u2060 The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more http:\/\/statsig.com\/pragmatic\n\u2022 Augment Code \u2014 AI coding assistant that pro engineering teams love http:\/\/augmentcode.com\/pragmatic\n\n\u2014\nThe Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:\n\n\u2022 Inside Facebook\u2019s engineering culture: https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/facebook\n\u2022 Shipping to production: https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/shipping-to-production\n\u2022 Software architecture with Grady Booch: https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/software-architecture-with-grady-booch\n\u2022 The AI Engineering Stack https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/the-ai-engineering-stack \n\u2022 The past and future of modern backend practices https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices \n\u2022 AI Engineering in the real world https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/ai-engineering-in-the-real-world \n\u2022 Paying down tech debt https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/p\/paying-down-tech-debt \n\n\u2014\nWhere to find Kent Beck:\n\u2022 X: https:\/\/x.com\/kentbeck\n\u2022 LinkedIn: https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/kentbeck\/\n\u2022 Website: https:\/\/kentbeck.com\/\n\u2022  Newsletter: https:\/\/tidyfirst.substack.com\/\n\nWhere to find Gergely Orosz: \n\u2022 X: https:\/\/x.com\/GergelyOrosz\n\u2022 LinkedIn: https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/gergelyorosz\/\n\u2022 Bluesky: https:\/\/bsky.app\/profile\/gergely.pragmaticengineer.com \n\u2022 Newsletter and blog: https:\/\/www.pragmaticengineer.com\/ \n\n\u2014\nIn this episode, we cover:\n(00:00) Intro\n(02:27) What Kent has been up to since writing Tidy First\n(06:05) Why AI tools are making coding more fun for Kent and why he compares it to a genie\n(13:41) Why Kent says languages don\u2019t matter anymore\n(16:56) Kent\u2019s current project building a small talk server\n(17:51) How Kent got involved with The Agile Manifesto\n(23:46) Gergely\u2019s time at JP Morgan, and why Kent didn\u2019t like the word \u2018agile\u2019\n(26:25) An overview of \u201cextreme programming\u201d (XP) \n(35:41) Kent\u2019s childhood tape-to-tape experiments that inspired TDD\n(42:11) Kent\u2019s response to Ousterhout\u2019s criticism of TDD\n(50:05) Why Kent still uses TDD with his AI stack \n(54:26) How Facebook operated in 2011\n(1:04:10) Facebook in 2011 vs. 2017\n(1:12:24) Rapid fire round \n\n\u2014\nSee the transcript and other references from the episode at https:\/\/newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com\/podcast\n\n\u2014\nProduction and marketing by https:\/\/penname.co\/. 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