[{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org\/","@type":"BlogPosting","@id":"https:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/insights\/max-shying-notion-ai-product-building-agency#BlogPosting","mainEntityOfPage":"https:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/insights\/max-shying-notion-ai-product-building-agency","headline":"Max Shying: AI, Agency, and the Future of Product Building","name":"Max Shying: AI, Agency, and the Future of Product Building","description":"\ud83d\udcfa Today’s recommended deep-dive video: https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=mCO-D3pkviM Driving Notion Like It\u2019s Stolen: Building Product in the Age of AIThe Collapsing Venn Diagram: AI and the Master of MaterialHigh Agency and Malleable SoftwareBuilding “Obviously Good” ProductsKey TakeawaysQ&A Driving Notion Like It\u2019s Stolen:... ","datePublished":"2026-07-20","dateModified":"2026-07-20","author":{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/author\/flextech-admin\/#Person","name":"flextech-admin","url":"https:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/author\/flextech-admin\/","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","@id":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/ad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536?s=150&d=mm&r=gforcedefault=1","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/ad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536?s=150&d=mm&r=gforcedefault=1","height":96,"width":96}},"publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"terabox","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","@id":"http:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/11\/logo\u4ea7\u54c1\u540d-\u7ad6\u7248.png","url":"http:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/11\/logo\u4ea7\u54c1\u540d-\u7ad6\u7248.png","width":900,"height":900}},"image":{"@type":"ImageObject","@id":"https:\/\/img.youtube.com\/vi\/mCO-D3pkviM\/maxresdefault.jpg","url":"https:\/\/img.youtube.com\/vi\/mCO-D3pkviM\/maxresdefault.jpg","height":"","width":""},"url":"https:\/\/blog.terabox.com\/insights\/max-shying-notion-ai-product-building-agency","video":{"@context":"http:\/\/schema.org\/","@type":"VideoObject","@id":"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=mCO-D3pkviM#VideoObject","contentUrl":"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=mCO-D3pkviM","name":"AI era skills: Why cultivating agency matters more than job titles | Max Schoening (Notion)","description":"Max Schoening is head of product at Notion, where he\u2019s been especially effective at getting designers and PMs to ship code, prototype in the terminal, and launch extremely successful AI products. He was previously a PM at Google, ran design at Heroku, was VP of Design (and a part-time engineer) at GitHub, and is a two-time founder. He\u2019s one of the most AI-forward product leaders out there and one of the deepest thinkers on how AI changes how we build and use software.\n\n*We discuss:*\n1. What\u2019s most worked in getting designers and PMs to embrace AI\n2. Why agency\u2014not skills\u2014is the thing that separates people who thrive from those who fall behind\n3. How the first 10% of every project is now \u201cfree,\u201d and what that means for product development\n4. Max\u2019s \u201ctiny core\u201d theory of great products: iPhone multitouch, the GitHub pull request, Notion blocks, Dropbox\u2019s menu bar icon\n5. Why the SaaSpocalypse is overstated\n6. Why the amount of software has exploded but the quality hasn\u2019t, and why that gap creates opportunity\n\n*Brought to you by:*\nWorkOS\u2014Make your app Enterprise Ready, with SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and more: https:\/\/workos.com\/lenny\nVanta\u2014Automate compliance, manage risk, and accelerate trust with AI: https:\/\/vanta.com\/lenny\n\n*Episode transcript:* https:\/\/www.lennysnewsletter.com\/p\/why-cultivating-agency-matters-more\n*Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts:* https:\/\/www.dropbox.com\/scl\/fo\/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193\/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0\n\n*Where to find Max Schoening:*\n\u2022 X: https:\/\/x.com\/mschoening\n\u2022 LinkedIn: https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/max-schoening\n\u2022 Website: https:\/\/max.dev\n\n*Where to find Lenny:*\n\u2022 Newsletter: https:\/\/www.lennysnewsletter.com\n\u2022 X: https:\/\/twitter.com\/lennysan\n\u2022 LinkedIn: https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/lennyrachitsky\/\n\n*In this episode, we cover:*\n(00:00) Introduction to Max Schoening\n(01:55) The origin story of designers coding at Notion\n(06:30) How much designers and PMs are shipping today\n(08:24) The balance between shipping code and strategic work\n(10:32) Why agency will help you thrive in the AI era\n(11:49) Examples of high agency at Notion\n(13:52) What we might lose as roles merge\n(15:56) Advice for developing agency\n(17:42) Malleable software explained\n(20:43) The Dieter Rams video and design philosophy\n(24:00) The SaaS apocalypse debate\n(28:25) How product building has changed in the past two years\n(30:27) What\u2019s next in how we build products\n(34:16) Token spend and ROI conversations\n(37:39) Getting people to change how they work\n(39:04) Max\u2019s AI stack\n(41:41) Which roles AI will transform next\n(44:26) When companies will start caring about ROI\n(48:38) Why Notion AI is so successful\n(51:47) How to ship more quickly while maintaining quality\n(56:40) Building taste through iterations\n(1:00:09) What matters most in building successful products\n(1:05:06) Using the jobs-to-be-done framework\n(1:07:28) Hot take on universal basic income\n(1:09:26) What Max would do with AGI\n(1:10:53) Contrarian corner\n(1:13:14) Failure corner\n(1:16:20) Advice for young people in Silicon Valley\n(1:19:20) Lightning round and final thoughts\n\n*Referenced:*\n\u2022 Esther 4:14: https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Esther%204%3A14&version=NIV\n\u2022 Notion: https:\/\/www.notion.com\n\u2022 Figma: https:\/\/www.figma.com\n\u2022 Bret Victor\u2014Stop Drawing Dead Fish: https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ZfytHvgHybA\n\u2022 GitHub: https:\/\/github.com\n\u2022 Notion\u2019s Brian Lovin on building a shared prototype playground, using Claude Code to transform Figma designs into working code, and why AI is changing how designers work: https:\/\/www.lennysnewsletter.com\/p\/i-havent-written-a-single-line-of\n\u2022 Eric Liu on LinkedIn: https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/erictliu\n\u2022 Steve Jobs\u2019s quote: https:\/\/quotefancy.com\/quote\/911503\/Steve-Jobs-Everything-around-you-that-you-call-life-was-made-up-by-people-that-were-no\n\u2022 Brian Chesky\u2019s new playbook: https:\/\/www.lennysnewsletter.com\/p\/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach\n\u2022 The Dieter Rams video pinned to Max\u2019s X profile: https:\/\/x.com\/mschoening\/status\/1725199919739519299\n\u2022 Frank Gehry: https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Frank_Gehry\n\u2022 He saved OpenAI, invented the \u201cLike\u201d button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https:\/\/www.lennysnewsletter.com\/p\/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor\n\u2022 Joanna Stern\u2019s post on X: https:\/\/x.com\/JoannaStern\/status\/2023529964185022898\n...References continued at: https:\/\/www.lennysnewsletter.com\/p\/why-cultivating-agency-matters-more\n\n_Production and marketing by https:\/\/penname.co\/._\n_For inquiries about 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